Tommi Nyman (00:00)
We believe this is the best place for nuclear to be on the market. It's the best market fit as all reactors, they produce heat and...
Heat market is of the total volume of energy consumption globally. Heating makes about 40%. Electricity is only 25%. So heating is almost double of that size of electricity market today. And as such, it's important. And most of that energy is produced by fossils.
And we know that when we just sell the heat from reactor, are already 3x more productive because we strip off the turbine island.
Mark Hinaman (01:46)
All right, welcome to another episode of the Fire Division podcast where we talk about energy dense fuels and how they can better human lives. I'm joined today by my guest, Newman from Steady Energy. He's the CEO and co-founder of Steady Energy. Tommy, I'm really excited to be chatting with you today. It's going to be a great conversation. How you doing?
Tommi Nyman (02:04)
doing fine. Thank you for inviting to this interview.
Mark Hinaman (02:07)
Yeah, yeah. So talk to right away folks, can tell ⁓ you've got an accent. Where are you sitting today?
Tommi Nyman (02:13)
I'm in Finland, close to our capital Helsinki and close to the actually birthplace of a steady energy as well. So, South Finland.
Mark Hinaman (02:22)
Yeah. Are you from Finland?
Tommi Nyman (02:25)
Yes, I'm
a Finnish citizen and I've been living here all my life. Of course, I've been working also abroad, but yes, I'm Finnish.
Mark Hinaman (02:28)
Yeah.
I'm really excited to talk about studying energy, but before we do, why you give us a little bit on your background. Let's see, you studied mechanical engineering and how did you get your start in the industry?
Tommi Nyman (02:47)
Yeah, I studied mechanical engineering actually very close to where we are now located with StediEnergy. There's a technical university here. I studied mechanical engineering. I was always interested in natural sciences and also building stuff with my hands.
through drawings and analyses and get things done and realized. So I started my career actually from CERN, European Laboratory for Particle Physics in Geneva, Switzerland, where I was participating, building particle accelerator and experiments around it. I spent my first 11 years there.
I've built up one of the experiments now, which is exploring ⁓ Higgs boson type of exploration. that's actually something what has actually yielded a Nobel Prize for particle physics. So happy to start my career on that type of large, big milestone for science.
From there I moved to nuclear industry. I joined Olge Lodotree project. This is the most recent western nuclear plant in Europe built up. EPR type pressurized water reactor. I joined the construction project in 2006. I was part of the project management team for eight years.
I was there in charge of schedule cost-risk topics, those that have been the troublemakers for nuclear industry since long time. So I got a very good overview and understanding about where the issues are actually in nuclear industry. So this was my kind of high school for getting hands deep into the construction and getting stuff built around nuclear.
From there I moved to VTT, which is the Technical Research Centre of Finland, a of a national lab that exists in the US. But there only one in Finland and ⁓ I was leading their nuclear energy research area for three years, where innovation for simplifying nuclear ovens for heat purposes was actually built.
This innovation now is something you were... I took it out as a spin-off to commercialize through Stedi. So I put up the company three years ago with two other co-founders who I met along my career in nuclear industry before. So that's shortly my career steps where we are now.
Mark Hinaman (05:17)
Yeah, what a journey. My goodness. What was it like working for OL3? And I can't pronounce the full name, right? That's... Ogiloto. Yeah.
Tommi Nyman (05:27)
Yeah, all can load to. Yeah. Yes.
Mark Hinaman (05:32)
I mean, you were there for what, 15 years and then left in 2020 during COVID?
Tommi Nyman (05:32)
⁓
Yeah, I spent all in all 50 years at Olkiloto. As I said, it was a kind of nuclear university for me. I was involved in different positions mainly related to constructing something and building nuclear energy to be safer and build new plants.
Olkeloto is a unique place in nuclear industry as such as well because it is the one and only location that I know that exists in the globe where the whole life cycle is actually exercised. From new built operating plants to the safe disposal of spent fuel, where while I was working there, was construction ongoing for the nuclear spent fuel repository.
So in that sense, it's a very exciting place for the nuclear industry, where you get to learn lot of things, how they're done, and get to learn also multiple people, experienced people, the whole environment, from the regulators to all other important stakeholders. It's a place to be for engineers as well, to get...
satisfied with the interesting stuff.
Mark Hinaman (06:47)
lots of technical work and actually building stuff. I think the full lifecycle example is an awesome example. point to that often. The repository that you guys built in there. What was it like? You're leading a pretty big team at VTT, right?
Tommi Nyman (07:03)
The team at VTT has had about, well, there was about 200 people all in all for serving nuclear research through different projects. In my team, about 140, 150 people directly. And the knowledge and scientific front that was exercised there was also covering
the kind of life cycle of the nuclear energy and the most important questions because was VTT was serving and made to serve the nuclear industry, but also the regulator STUC. So all those kind of most difficult questions, unanswered questions, they were brought to VTT to be studied and answered.
That was also an exciting understanding of the forefront of where the nuclear industry research is going on.
Mark Hinaman (07:58)
Yeah. Do you have an example of like some of questions that you guys were trying to answer?
Tommi Nyman (08:03)
Sorry.
Mark Hinaman (08:03)
So do you have an example of maybe one of the topics that you guys are studying?
Tommi Nyman (08:06)
I've recently
Yeah, well, one example is the basis of our business at Stereo, course. I mean, we were studying about what is the best way to use nuclear energy out of the electricity industry, the electricity market, and heating was the obvious choice there.
Mark Hinaman (08:15)
of steady energy. Yeah, okay.
Tommi Nyman (08:30)
the research started to concept a reactor that only produces heat at a very low temperature. we ended up with the final innovation that actually the greatest innovation of that seemed to the simplification of everything.
But also other topics, just to mention for example research concerning the spent fuel questions and how the arrangements for spent fuel repository are to be actually realized. What type of ⁓ isotopes are actually the harmful ones and how to...
encapsulate those and we did it was also researching and during my time we put a lot of effort on the fusion and actually today the group of fusion scientists the group of that has been growing by I mean four times since I left there so it started
started to be a very very important function.
Mark Hinaman (09:37)
That's great. Okay, so you're working at this research center and then you said you've got this idea for a new company, somebody should really go build this. Walk us through that process. How that come about?
Tommi Nyman (09:48)
to build a new company.
Mark Hinaman (09:49)
Yeah.
Tommi Nyman (09:49)
Yeah, part of the mission of VTT, the Technical Research Centre in Finland, is that they want to actually boost the economy of Finland as well. they are kind of factorizing, let's say, producing the innovations, not only for having the prices of
innovating and get IPs for laying on the books but also to commercialize those IPs. And I have a program, mean a launchpad, which builds ⁓ capacities for individuals or teams to be ready for taking the innovation, pitch it out to be a commercial setting and get funding.
initial seed funding and get a company running. Typically V2D then involves into the company that they give the IP, maybe not fully the ownership at the beginning like in our case, but they give the rights to use the IP and get the business running. And later...
they might transfer the whole ownership of the IP as well. So this is whole idea behind VTT's research. They want to have economical impact to the industry and the economy of Finnish societies. And they are not kind of a university that produces purely scientific results, which is also important, but it's not the purpose of VTT.
So it came out of a natural, it was a pathway of being, I mean, part of the business that VTT does that I happened to be one of the 60 companies that VTT has built out.
Mark Hinaman (11:26)
How many was that? Six or sixteen?
Tommi Nyman (11:29)
About
60 I think they have launched out.
Mark Hinaman (11:32)
Alright, so tell us about Steady Energy. You're a co-founder. What's the problem that you guys are trying to solve?
Tommi Nyman (11:39)
Yeah, mission of Stereo Energy is actually to tap the nuclear energy only for heating markets, which I explained. We believe this is the best place for nuclear to be on the market. It's the best market fit as all reactors, they produce heat and...
Heat market is of the total volume of energy consumption globally. Heating makes about 40%. Electricity is only 25%. So heating is almost double of that size of electricity market today. And as such, it's important. And most of that energy is produced by fossils.
And we know that when we just sell the heat from reactor, are already 3x more productive because we strip off the turbine island. And we know that even the energy for heat as such is sometimes constantly higher on a market price than electricity, especially here in Nordics.
Mark Hinaman (12:32)
Yeah.
Tommi Nyman (12:43)
because the electricity is saturated by renewables nowadays. But the problem of that is the volatility and unpredictability. So we cannot rely on heating something purely on wind power. Because in Nordics when the cold winter days hit you, then you don't have any wind typically.
kind of sentiments, arguments they are speaking for such a solution that let's make nuclear for heat papers only. So we started to build the business around it, started to find out the clients, build out the financial model. What does the investment look like? We are able to simplify.
The design technology for us is existing. We typically say that investors don't believe, but it already exists because we use light for the reactor. Our base, most important innovation is the simplicity. So we only use what we know that is already proven. We put it in different contexts. So redesign.
make it smaller or simpler and then even safer. There are multiple strong arguments that speak for this business. I thought now is the correct time to go for it. There's a market demand, real need for it and we see this when we speak to clients.
Mark Hinaman (14:04)
Yeah.
Tommi Nyman (14:12)
If no one does it, then it's pity not to explore it and let it unused.
Mark Hinaman (14:24)
Yeah, if you guys don't do it, who will, right?
Tommi Nyman (14:27)
Yeah,
we have one competitor. There is already competitors. It kind of proves that, there is a market. But we are first mover.
Mark Hinaman (14:34)
Well, idea,
I mean you said it's 3x, right? There's this thermal efficiency and energy, like net energy efficiency inherent to just producing heat over electricity, right? Like all nuclear reactors have a megawatt thermal rating and a megawatt electric rating. And you guys heard.
Tommi Nyman (14:52)
Yes.
Right.
Mark Hinaman (14:58)
capitalizing on selling the megawatt hours, but the thermal hours, right, and not having to convert it to electricity.
Tommi Nyman (15:04)
Exactly. Yeah, because you lose 60 % of your primary energy when you convert your energy to electrons.
Mark Hinaman (15:05)
Yeah.
And then trying to transport the energy, Like moving electricity, there's a power loss over a distance, right? And so, yeah.
Tommi Nyman (15:12)
Plus you have the CapEx software.
Yeah, of course that as well.
Mark Hinaman (15:23)
Fascinating. Okay, so the business case for it makes a lot of sense, well, there's losses with electricity when you're moving it from A to B, but presumably there's also losses in heat in trying to move it long distances. Is there a limitation on kind how far you can move heat?
Tommi Nyman (15:41)
Yeah, our business model currently stays on the grounds that we actually replace the operating either fossil or biomass boilers. And we use the existing infrastructure as such and kind of try to do one to one replacement of the retired or soon to retire facilities.
That means that we already have the networks in place and the losses, what are there, they are there. And in typical case, when we start thinking that whether the investment of our plant makes sense, we take the whole heating system under a scrutiny. We have our own analyzing methods and calculation tools.
Typically the heating companies have several heat sources along the pipelines, either oil or gas or waste heat and a combination of all these sources. ⁓ we analyze their current status and we check what is happening to the operating costs if we remove, for example, these fossil plants and replace with our reactors.
or we remove the biomass boilers and replace with our reactors because technically we are building our plants underground. They could be on the same spot and location where the current plants are. And in that sense, we kind of create a realistic replacement plan. And in cases we have analyzed so far, we have been able to demonstrate
Mark Hinaman (16:58)
you
Tommi Nyman (17:11)
lower operating costs when nuclear is replaced from the nuclear replacing these other assets from the system.
Mark Hinaman (17:20)
That's a... I like that approach, replacing existing assets, right? saying, ⁓ like, hey, we've already got this system built. It's serving the same purpose, but we're going come in and use a different fuel. So... What is it? You said you're building these underground. Talk to us a little bit about the style of reactor. You said light water reactor, but why underground?
Tommi Nyman (17:24)
Yeah.
Mark Hinaman (17:45)
Yeah, how are you thinking about citing these things? Give us a little color.
Tommi Nyman (17:48)
Yeah.
Yeah, our current reference design, as we call it, is based on an ⁓ underground layout where the whole is totally built underground. It is there for good reasons, from the external threat reasons, like the drones and airplane. We have seen it's actually more economical to build it totally underground. But also there's some...
Mark Hinaman (18:11)
Is that like 2
meters, 5 meters, 10 meters, 100 meters? How far are
Tommi Nyman (18:17)
In current geologic layout we have an excavation which is looking like a sub-metro station. It's about 40 meters underground, the floor of our hall. there is, depends on the rock conditions, 50 meters rock above the hall.
Mark Hinaman (18:31)
Okay.
Okay.
Tommi Nyman (18:38)
And it has turned out that this is most economical way of constructing nuclear facilities when you have good rock conditions. But also we have a possibility to build a kind of dig and cover. So we make a trench and then cover it with concrete slabs. But still so that we are underground.
And one aspect that speaks for underground placement is the public acceptability. It's much more easy to tell people to accept nuclear when it's located underground, so you kind of get a sense of security from that point of view as well. But also there's a technical reason about saving land, so plot plan is smaller.
Mark Hinaman (19:23)
Yeah. I mean, it's already got a small footprint compared to any other energy generation source. But yeah, I agree. Go vertical, 3D space, right? Is it just a borehole that you're going down 40 meters or do you have another kind of full building that you're excavating? What's the scale of the excavation?
Tommi Nyman (19:29)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Scale of the underground building, mean? Yeah. If we build... Well, we have kind modular concept where one of our reactor modules produces 50 megawatt of heat power, but you can build several of those in one heating plant.
Our reference design currently has four reactors, so it is a 200 megawatt thermal output. And this installation takes a length of about, I would say, 80 meters or so, 100 meters. And the whole, it's like a substation. Like if you have been to Helsinki, a petrol station.
Mark Hinaman (20:18)
Like a metro station underground, right?
That's great. Okay. So light water reactor, is there a target size that you guys are? And when I say size, I mean power rating that you're targeting. then will these things operate at kind of typical light water reactor temperature? Or do you think you can operate them cooler since you don't need the thermal efficiency?
Tommi Nyman (20:31)
Yeah.
Yeah, we... maximum power for the reactor is designed to be 50 megawatts per reactor. So it's a pressurized water reactor. It works under a small overpressure, a maximum 10 bar. So very low. So therefore also our reactor pressure vessel can be quite thin from the wall thickness. So we can use...
conventional manufacturing facilities that are producing vessels for petrochemical industry, for example. The operating temperature is not more than 150 degrees Celsius. As in electricity production, you need over 300 degrees Celsius. So this is more than half of that.
Mark Hinaman (21:30)
Yeah, that's great.
Tommi Nyman (21:31)
And right,
so the refueling cycle with full power, we can operate more than 550 days. So it is very close to two years. And our reactor fuel, it's very typical pressurized reactor fuel. It's almost same cross-section as with AP1000 reactors.
But of course the amount of fuel is much less. There's less bundles and they are much shorter. About one meter of effective length only.
Mark Hinaman (22:04)
How come why shorter fibroids?
Tommi Nyman (22:07)
Because we need less power, so we want to the reactor as spherical as possible. So when you reduce the power, you reduce the volume and you end up to have a cube of one meter per size. That's your core basic geometry.
Mark Hinaman (22:23)
Yeah.
Yeah. Are there engineering problems that you guys haven't solved yet or that you're like, well, we'll figure out that piece later. Like, I'm sure there have, that always happens with startups.
Tommi Nyman (22:38)
Sorry, which one?
Mark Hinaman (22:38)
Are there any engineering problems that you guys? Yeah, yeah.
Tommi Nyman (22:41)
Engineering problems. Yeah.
Yeah, well...
Engineering challenges maybe. Yeah. Yeah, we have engineering challenges.
Mark Hinaman (22:47)
Engineers are here again, and
we by us. We're both the gamble engineers here.
Tommi Nyman (22:52)
Yeah,
certainly we have. But we don't have R &D challenges, so that's important. So we are kind of separating our development so that we have solved all the R &D because we used the light with the reactor. then we have to design.
the reactor to be operated at low temperature and utilize the leverage the very mild operating conditions. So we have engineering questions and for example this the core is not operating under not using any boron so it's boron free from the kind of reactor engineering point of view there are some questions.
but they are solved more or less and also the control road drive mechanisms has to be redesigned from scratch. We want them to be in vessel and so that we simplify the operations. And we believe this lower temperature range actually allows us to embed the control motors into the water.
But certainly there are engineering challenges that we will solve. And we have more or less a few kind of development programs in parallel where we are testing these innovative corners of our reactor. One of the most important tests is actually a full-size reactor vessel that we are currently building.
There are engineering questions related to how does our reactor operate in passive circulation. We don't have any ⁓ circulation pumps inside the reactor. So we rely on natural circulation totally. And also our emergency cooling system is relying on natural circulations. So we have to be sure that our calculations are right.
that these passive cooling systems are measured properly, especially the emergency one. So for that purpose, we built a full scale, one-to-one reactor module and run the tests and demonstrate it.
Mark Hinaman (24:57)
awesome. You've already built that. And you've been running that test or demonstrated the natural circulation.
Tommi Nyman (24:57)
So.
Not yet. We are currently building. We are ready with the test facilities early next year and start then the testing program.
Mark Hinaman (25:12)
Yeah. Nothing.
Tommi Nyman (25:12)
But I believe we are the
first SMR company who is building a full-size reactor module as one goal from scratch. One point also is that we demonstrate in this way the capacities for building such a reactor through real workshops.
Mark Hinaman (25:31)
Yeah, through real
swiping, right? Like what factory is actually going to build this pressure vessel and then what's all the piping look like?
Tommi Nyman (25:33)
Exactly.
Yes,
so you get a very good grip of your manufacturing process and the capex and the time schedule and other delivery capacities and so forth. we are much more prepared for selling and executing the real first commercial plans.
Mark Hinaman (25:57)
Okay, and then moving the heat out of the reactor, you guys just pumping water through it at 150 C, like pretty easy to move water and keep it liquid at that temperature.
Tommi Nyman (26:04)
Hmm.
Yeah,
basically it's all liquid, it's not even boiling. All is one state liquid. The reactor vessel water doesn't go out to the vessel. There are heat exchangers inside. So we kind of pick up the heat to the secondary loop, which is then through another heat exchanger.
letting it out to the third loop, which could be the consumer loop. heat just conducts over, the energy conducts over, but the water circuits stay intact.
Mark Hinaman (26:45)
Yeah. Okay. Talk to us a little bit, Tommy, about the public reception. When you go and talk to people about this idea, what's their feedback?
Tommi Nyman (26:56)
Most of the people are interested. But most people who are asking about this question, expect that most people are afraid. But in fact, we have done several surveys already, especially here in Finland, where we want to start with that. What do you select rather a nuclear reactor for your heating system than...
bio boiler. And there's one one city, North Finland here, where most of the respondents actually voted for nuclear instead of the biomass boiler. So it's much much about educating people. They know that this can lead to very cost efficient solution. It's a silent, it's underground. You operate two years without any ⁓ interventions.
It doesn't create waste, only a little bit, which is the of nuclear waste. Compared to that amount of lorry traffic of wood, the difference is massive.
Mark Hinaman (27:52)
Yeah. Uranium compared to wood. We'd say our catchphrase, right? Energy dense fuels. And this is like the most energy dense compared to one of the least.
Tommi Nyman (27:52)
And yeah, there... Yeah.
Yes,
but this is what they compare because the current way of generating constant heat and safe kind of that you even in the winter you are secured that you will have your homes heated up. This is the place that you use wood. You burn wood here in Finland. We have done that for several hundred years and now it's maybe time to think something different.
Mark Hinaman (28:27)
Yeah.
Tommi Nyman (28:27)
We also have
the biodiversity and due to the climate change, we are starting to have also issues here in Finland about who is going to suck all the CO2 off the air if we are cutting the forests. And that is one of the dilemmas that people are thinking here. But yes, of course there are voices also that are against nuclear, but...
Typically those voices are built on the narrative of Chernobyl and not having enough information what nuclear energy could be. I typically start also giving examples of research reactors like ⁓ one in the middle of Boston, which is operated by students there in the United States and also here in Finland we have had ⁓
research reactor MILF campus. So it's question of designing and also sizing the nuclear reactors properly that you can really make them safe. And we kind of approach with thermal reactors similar region with low power and very mild kind of transients and
There's no hazardous events that could happen.
Mark Hinaman (29:39)
So I want to start by saying this, you mentioned this briefly, but more than 40 % of Europe's energy goes towards heating. And I agree with you, I feel like this is unknown to a lot of people how much energy is used just for heating. Why do you think that is? And why do you think a lot of that's been?
not ignored but quiet in the energy transition conversation? What's been your experience talking about heating around electricity?
Tommi Nyman (30:07)
Yeah.
I think one reason is that it's so scattered. So when I speak of 40 % of heating, it's heating something. It's not just desert heating. It's all the industrial heat as such as well, which also nuclear can be providing. But you would need to be designing for higher temperature ranges. So I think people don't speak of that because heating is a local business.
Mark Hinaman (30:22)
Yeah.
you
Tommi Nyman (30:35)
and it's scattered. And when we do business with our clients, it's something that we meet one-to-one, the energy company directors, and they have their own network and own problems there. And typically also, the personal markets, are themselves also pricing it and making the business.
If you compare to electricity market, it's something much wider and larger. It's massive market. So in kind of one single euro or dollar terms, the electricity is much larger as an economic sector where you can access it through a single market. So if you have placed there and you try to be the winner, might be a king.
Mark Hinaman (31:20)
Yeah.
Tommi Nyman (31:21)
But in the
heat market, you have to do the hard work yourself. And you have to market it to kind of one to one, network by network. And you have to investigate also where does your business actually make most sense. But I would say if it replace all the gas burners from Europe.
that are now providing heat to digital heating networks and only in Europe we would have a market of 1,000 reactors for us. So it's already a good number to start with.
Mark Hinaman (31:53)
And the
energy security piece, right?
or Americans or the Middle East to really pour your gas from.
Tommi Nyman (32:00)
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. These local companies to whom we're speaking with, of course are typically owned by the city, municipal energy companies. So they are serving kind of the citizens. So they typically speak to us that this is their kind of jewel. is the most important asset that they have for the citizens that they need to fill the promise of keeping the...
people safe and warm because they will die without heating. So they are like... Right. And also the teenagers, they will start screaming because the showers don't produce any hot water anymore.
Mark Hinaman (32:40)
Yeah
Tommi Nyman (32:41)
But they are very interested in energy security and independence as well, that they would have some security. Part of the system would be secured for long time with a solid price, predictable way of producing. Of course, no one is actually looking forward that they would produce all the heat that they need from nuclear.
because it's volatile as well. The demand is volatile. Summer, winter. Difference is 10x. But they can predict it. So they can plan for it. That where does the nuclear make most sense? As typically this is the kind of base load. Throughout the year you need always, even in the summertime, you need the sour waters to be heated up and so forth. You need X amount of megawatts on your network all the year round.
And this is the sweet spot for us. But also we can top up a little bit to go to the region where we have some peaking and adjustment because our energy is very low cost. So you don't need to run this with 100 % efficiency. We make the economy, lucrative economy with 70 % occupancy rate.
⁓ performance.
Mark Hinaman (33:57)
So I assume you're working on projects in Finland or trying to work on building... Well, I guess I'm gonna ask the question. Do you have a prototype system built and where do you expect to commercialize these first?
Tommi Nyman (34:15)
We start from Finland in our roadmap. We believe this is the best place where new nuclear can be established. Because of the reasons I just mentioned, have, thanks to Olkiluoto, the experience of the whole life cycle and operating experience, really. On a daily basis, things are moving forward there. we have...
hands-on experience and we have four clients here actually we announced today number four where we have signed a letter of intent to move forward and investigate the possibility of implementing nuclear energy to the city. The most advanced city is one where they already have done the city zoning
They have completed it in a manner that they can locate two places where nuclear heating plants could be built. And they are currently running the environmental investment application or EIA assessment, environmental impact assessment. Results expected early next year. So we are looking for...
to get the first projects somewhere in Finland started up and have the final investment commitment by the client in the next couple of years.
Mark Hinaman (35:27)
That's fantastic. It's always smart to start in your backyard. Are you looking at other places also or are there other countries in Europe that are interested?
Tommi Nyman (35:30)
Yes.
Right.
Yes, we do. The most important market outside Finland is Poland. They are the second largest user of desert heating networks in Europe. And most of the generation is based on fossil today, either coal or gas. So they have an urgent need to replace those. And also we have one country manager working in Poland already.
which has initiated an office also in Sweden. And we have a partnership in Germany. Germany is very much on political level opposing nuclear energy, in...
Mark Hinaman (36:16)
Not for much longer, man.
It's gonna change.
Tommi Nyman (36:20)
It can change
and actually legally they are not banning nuclear for heating. They are banning nuclear for electricity in legal terms. So this is what our partnership ⁓ company, they follow the rules. But also they follow the money because nuclear heating could solve
Mark Hinaman (36:28)
Yeah. And they'll follow the rules. Right.
Tommi Nyman (36:39)
a lot of their current heating bill problems. They are paying about 150 euros per megawatt hour currently. And our promise, our kind of levelized cost of heat range that gives some indication, we land to 40 euros per megawatt hour. So there's 100 euro of megawatt hour difference. So that makes the interest for Germans.
Mark Hinaman (37:06)
Yeah, I'm sure they're very, very interested. That's great. Is there one country that seems to be easier and more receptive? I probably, I imagine Finland for you being native and operating in your own country, but are there other? Do you think there's a regulatory environment that's gonna be more receptive?
are the most receptive.
Tommi Nyman (37:27)
Poland is very receptive as well. ⁓ are actually building a program for ⁓ electricity nuclear plants currently. legislation is up and building up. Also Estonia, they are building up a nuclear program. Both of those countries didn't have a nuclear program before, but now they are looking for to build one.
Mark Hinaman (37:27)
you
Yeah.
Tommi Nyman (37:49)
They are taking lessons also from Finland of how to build up nuclear capacities. Ukraine, after this massive destruction, stops one day. I hope soon. They have a massive rebuilt program ahead. In fact, they are the second largest user of nuclear energy in Europe.
Mark Hinaman (38:03)
Yeah.
Tommi Nyman (38:09)
and they have also massive digital network currently in place. So we already have started with regulator in Ukraine and dialogue about how our concept would be aligned with their regulations and they're looking very keen on introducing that. So we haven't speak to clients yet of course of this situation but...
we make already pathway through regulators there.
Mark Hinaman (38:31)
you
So what's the future look like Tommy? mean you guys have raised a little bit of money, right? My notes say 32 million euros, I don't know if that's right or not. yeah, startup mode, you're always fundraising. But what's the future look like?
Tommi Nyman (38:49)
Yeah, funding is already 82 million in total. This 32 was the size of the last round as such. And it had some option elements inside. So we have currently about 80 million. And as we speak, we are of course negotiating next round as well. But it looks positive.
Mark Hinaman (38:50)
you
Gotcha.
Tommi Nyman (39:08)
I would say nuclear energy and industry has a little bit of almost bubble feature tailwinds, especially in the US, where not all the projects have, to my understanding, the grounds to be maybe on that kind of tailwind. But there's a lot ⁓ of demand and there might be some blindness. But we are...
Mark Hinaman (39:26)
Yeah.
Tommi Nyman (39:32)
We are keeping still our feet on the ground and our roadmap and growth plan is based on the client negotiations that I mentioned. One-to-one discussions with the clients that we know exist and we know their needs and we have analyzed how our technology and products could satisfy their needs. We have computed out whether that makes economical sense.
And on that kind of realistic map we have projected a growth plan for us which looks now something we believe in and we have told that plan to our investors. So it looks that we are starting in Finland. We built the first plant here but in parallel we expand to most likely in Poland.
as the first export products, then Sweden, possibly Estonia, and so forth.
Mark Hinaman (40:24)
What's the timeline like for building some of your first plants?
Tommi Nyman (40:29)
That's again depends when the client signs the first real contract but we still have some engineering work here so we aim to get the first construction license in two to three years time, start building the first unit and get it up and running early 2030s. It's also a function of the size of the plant.
whether it's a four reactor or two reactor unit or something in between. Also depends a little bit on the conditions, stroke conditions and so forth. But early 30s is our realistic plan for that.
Mark Hinaman (41:05)
Awesome. I can tell right now to have you back on the show to talk more about it as you guys progress. ⁓
Tommi Nyman (41:10)
Yeah.
Mark Hinaman (41:13)
Tell me what's it been like transitioning out of research and working for big companies and then going to a startup mode? mean, you've been successful so far, raising money, selling the dream, getting letters of intent, but it's all awesome. I'm really excited for you. But any learnings that you'd be willing to share?
Tommi Nyman (41:22)
Hmm.
Yeah, maybe a lot, but depends who listens and who wants to learn from which angle. So, I mean, if you just have motivation to do something, just start doing and believe on your own plans, build it on the grounds that you believe so you can get others also to believe on it and especially investors.
who are the fuel to your dreams. And on nuclear industry, to get the funding and the investors committed, as well as in Europe, to nuclear energy has been a tough path, because there are still some countries who oppose this very strongly.
and it reflects to the European Union decision makers there and typically VC funds they have LPs behind who might have ⁓ connections to European regulations and so forth. So we have faced that we have been having negotiations quite advanced but then in the end looks like the nuclear might not be a good choice for that company.
But the sentiment seems to be turning. So we haven't kind of stopped moving forward. We have just kept seeking and negotiating with another next possible candidate. It's kind of a sales business and sales work for new stuff.
Mark Hinaman (42:48)
them.
Yeah,
I love it. Well Tommy, paint a picture for us. It's called 2032. You guys have several projects that you're building and you know there's up to a thousand at least locations in Europe that need replaced. Like what's the future look like?
Tommi Nyman (43:19)
Yeah, that's how it looks like. mean, we will have... Yeah, it looks nice. If it's up to us, we will start delivering in series production early 2030s. And in fact, our business model is based on building a fleet of reactors where we would then...
Mark Hinaman (43:21)
That's it.
Tommi Nyman (43:39)
For those clients who actually don't want to own the assets, because there are many of those small ones, we will build an operator and we will serve the plans, operate them through a fleet, like windmills and that ⁓ industry where you have several assets. And we already have an...
cooperation agreement with Fortum, a Finnish nuclear energy operator here in Finland, together with who we are now developing the OATM operations maintenance capacities. So we are on a pathway then to build skills to operate the units in a fleet manner. So this is what we're looking for in future. Several plans.
Mark Hinaman (44:17)
Yeah.
Tommi Nyman (44:22)
operated centrally through a fleet, serving low cost and clean energy to citizens.
Mark Hinaman (44:28)
I love the vision. Very, very exciting. Tommy Newman, thanks so much for the time and take the time to chat with me. Really excited to see how you guys progress and what you do.
Tommi Nyman (44:36)
Yeah, thanks.
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