087 Grace Vanderhei, Nuclear Engineer and Public Speaker

Grace Vanderhei (00:00)
I will jump in and say, like, I think that what I hope that the nuclear industry does in these next 10 years and with these next new builds is I want the priority to be on time and on budget. Like there from from the general public interaction, because the general

The general public does have the power of social licensing to just shut plants down if they don't want one in their community, right? they have that power. there's a lot of a lack of trust in our construction process in the nuclear industry. So like

I really just hope 10 years out we're building on time, on budget. I honestly do not care what is getting built, but I want multiple successful projects. I want a pattern of success to continue to rebuild that trust because nuclear can do it. Like I know that this industry can do it. We've done it before, we did it in the 70s and 80s, and yes, a lot of things have changed since then.

But we can do it today.

Mark Hinaman (01:56)
Alright, welcome to another episode of the Fire Sufficient Podcast where we talk about energy dense fuels and how they can better human lives. I'm joined today by Miss America herself, Grace

for those unfamiliar, which would be astonishing if you're in the nuclear industry or curious about the nuclear industry and you're not aware of Grace, she's a wonderful awesome advocate for the industry. Grace, why why don't you give a thirty second background about yourself?

Grace Vanderhei (02:23)
Yeah, for sure. So my name's my name's Grace, as we all know at this point. I currently

Mark Hinaman (02:26)
Okay,

Grace Vanderhei (02:28)
work as a nuclear fuels engineer and clean energy advocate with Constellation. So right now my big project is working on the Crane restart. So the restart of a decommissioned unit at Three Mile Island Unit One. It is being renamed to the Chris Christopher Crane Clean Energy Center. So that's a super fun project on the engineering side. But outside of the nuclear world, I love to water ski, I play violin, I'm heavily involved.

In like mentoring and coaching for public speaking and interview skills. I love to travel. I'm a big like national park person. My ideal weekend is camping in the woods with my dog. We're getting into overlanding though and off-roading. So like you're out in Denver. We just spent like two weeks in Denver, or not in Denver specifically, but like Ure and going out to Moab and doing some off-roading and stuff. So that was that was fun.

Mark Hinaman (03:20)
That's that's tremendous. I feel like we would be friends in our personal lives if we lived closer together. We have many of the same interests.

Grace Vanderhei (03:25)
Yeah, yeah. No,

I like still to this day I always joke around that I'm like if there was an opportunity that I could move out west to the mountains and live there for a little bit, I hands down would. Like I know I'll end back in the Midwest, but there's something about the mountains that I also think could convince me to stay. So Uh-huh. There are there are indeed.

Mark Hinaman (03:44)
There's some nuclear engineering companies out here that you know. Yeah, yeah.

So I wanna like I could talk about personal stuff all day. That's fantastic. I need to tell about my college peers or classmates, good friends camping company, Overland Campers. He's he runs it and songs and you'd love it. So

Grace Vanderhei (04:06)
That's awesome.

Mark Hinaman (04:08)
so Grace I don't know about this, but talk about

yeah, your

Your day j day in the life, how much 'cause you've got kinda still role like public facing support for the industry, advocate and then also still technical, right? Like are you still working on the technical side? Yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (04:22)
Yeah. Yeah,

so

I am very, very blessed where I have this like really unique dual role. And I I like to kind of say that it's a first of a kind in the nuclear industry. I certainly hope it's not the last of a kind, because I think we really have started to see the importance of advocacy and actually getting out into the communities and and having people that work firsthand on nuclear science out there sharing stories about it. So I hope that that this type of a first of a kind role continues. And what it is is about 60 to 70% of my job is engineering work.

So nuclear fuels work, doing core design and cycle management for reload. So I just finished my first reload was for Braidwood 2, just south of Chicago. And my next one is the crane restart, which is like really wild if I'm being honest. as someone who's like very, very still new to working in the in this industry, I was like, are you guys really sure you want to put me on this? Like, are we sure? but it's been a really fun challenge because like ultimately, no matter who is gonna be on it, we all

we all are figuring it out day by day for it. So

Mark Hinaman (05:28)
Yeah. Yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (05:30)
So that's like the engineering half of my job. And then the other half I get to sort of continue doing this like external facing things. whether it's podcasts, whether it's speaking on panels, whether it's giving keynote speeches, whether it's making social media content, maybe I'm writing articles. Like it's honestly a little bit of everything. I'll go to DC and meet with legislators every once in a while. Like that half of the role, or not half, it's less than half, but like that part of the role is a very just like

whatever is the most fitting at the time that we need to pursue and that I'm interested in pursuing too. So like for example I did a 10 day speaking tour in Australia. There wasn't really much of like a business vend like interest in it from the constellation side, but it was really important to me to get out on a global front and in Australia nuclear energy is banned and they're trying to lift that ban right now. So that's what that whole tour was for.

Mark Hinaman (06:25)
That's strange.

That's strange.

Grace Vanderhei (06:27)
It's it's wild because they have like everything else nuclear there, but they just don't allow them to make nuclear energy or mine for uranium, despite the fact that they have like the largest uranium reserves. But they can get it as a byproduct, but they can't like mine directly for uranium. But that's okay. Not that's

Mark Hinaman (06:43)
Yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (06:44)
a tangent for a different day. So day in the life on the engineering side is unfortunately a lot of computer work. So like I can't it I wish I could make it sound like really exciting and cool, but most days.

I am like sitting on a laptop running Casmo Simulate or working on documentation or whatever it might be.

But we do get to see the exciting result of our work when that fuel is actually fabricated.

And like right now it's really cool because some of the fuel for the reload that I worked on is in a plant, operating, creating electricity right now. And that's just awesome to know that starting at the literal core of the plant, I've been able to to influence that and be a part of that and help make electricity for hundreds of thousands of Americans to use.

Mark Hinaman (07:30)
See, you say not exciting, I think that's

incredible. Like the

Grace Vanderhei (07:34)
It's well

like if you I always feel bad because like interns will be like, Hey, can I shadow you for a day? I'm like, dog, we're just gonna be sitting in my cube. Like I wish it was like exciting and we're crawling up ladders. Yeah,

Mark Hinaman (07:44)
I don't know if your job. Yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (07:46)
yeah. So it's okay though. It's all right.

Mark Hinaman (07:51)
but it it is very intellectually stimulating. And what one of the things that's most fascinating to me about the process of design and engineering i is going from n nothing from an idea or from a concept and then seeing real tangible energy products that get built.

Grace Vanderhei (08:11)
Yeah.

And I will say, like, I think it's very different depending on each company you go to. Like you ultimately all have a very similar end product, right? But the one thing that's been interesting about like working for Constellation, which is a massive company at the end of the day, like the processes are really well known.

this point for these existing sites and these existing reactors. So like Braidwood when I was doing that one, like that was a pretty, pretty straightforward reload. But there's all sorts of other things going on in the background with the growth of the nuclear industry that leads to variation in these processes that are like so well known and so ironed out. so like Crane is an example of that with like, all right, so yeah we know how to reload reactors, but like we don't have any fuel in that core right now. So can it be just a normal reload process or procedure when we're

doing something different with the core design in some capacity 'cause it's all fresh fuel. So like that sort of thing is like, alright, it's a little bit different now. But it's really cool.

Mark Hinaman (09:11)
so restarting crane, very, very exciting. but anytime that you go back and do a process again or something that hasn't been done in a while, the people that it last aren't here, there's a lot of learning we have to occur.

again, right, or relearnings, right? I mean are you experiencing that? Like how's how's the project management of that going? How's any specific stories or stuff you can speak to or

Grace Vanderhei (09:37)
Yeah, you know, so one of the things that I think, well, yes, it's like it's it's unique because it's a restart, right? So it's a decommissioned reactor, but ultimately like it's very similar to a new reactor startup, which we have had some of those in the industry lately with Vogel Three and Four. So we've actually worked a lot with them for startup lessons learned, whether it's like ramp rates discussions all the way over to startup sources, because like I think coming from a a mindset of working in just reloads for so

long you forget that you need neutrons to start the chain reaction because like reloads you've already got all of your once-burned and twice burned fuel so when it's like an all-fresh fuel core you're like we need something to like start it so like even just the startup source has been like its own independent project set aside from the core design itself so things like that

has been really cool to see and have lessons learned from the rest of the industry. You know, that specific project we took a lot from Vocal Three and Four in terms of what they used and things that they would have changed or things like that. So it's been really exciting. I think that from like our narrow scope of just working on the fuel, there is some literal like once in generation type of challenges that like I may never work on in my career again. but it makes it all the more fun and all the more

exciting to to see some of that stuff just because and I I say like once in a generation just because how often do you work on a completely all fresh fuel core? and it's usually only once and that's when that reactor starts up and that's it. So that's the

Mark Hinaman (11:14)
I mean

Grace Vanderhei (11:15)
that's the exciting thing.

Mark Hinaman (11:17)
With with with some of the new advanced reactor designs are smaller. Like I think it's gonna be more common, right? Like Valor just

Grace Vanderhei (11:24)
Yeah, I certainly

Mark Hinaman (11:26)
had a fresh core that you know is no longer fresh and but it's gonna have more and more.

Grace Vanderhei (11:30)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I certainly hope it's

not a once in a generation thing. Let me say it that way then.

Mark Hinaman (11:37)
Did did you go and see the plant ac while it was decommissioned or have you have you been there and visited?

Grace Vanderhei (11:44)
Yeah, I've been to I've been to Crane a couple of times since like the restart was announced. I I hadn't been there prior to that. I was able to help with like some of the public engagement side of things where they did like a community days in twenty twenty-five. Yeah, last June it was. So about a year ago. Actually it might be like a year ago today. But anyways. and that was really fun 'cause you get to do like the community engagement side of it. And I go there probably once every two to three months just to like I like going to Crane. It's not that far away for me.

So

Mark Hinaman (12:16)
Yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (12:17)
It's really neat to see the progress and the change that

happens. And I I think one of the things that I have found so remarkable about the whole restart process is nuclear has has always been seen as like slow moving or things like that. and I think we're seeing this on all fronts, right? With like every aspect of nuclear. That was the assumption and it's changing where we're seeing, you know, this year we've already had two advanced reactors get to criticality. we're seeing all sorts of different innovations on that side. but like even just

From the traditional nuclear standpoint of a decommissioned reactor, yes, it's a first of a kind, but things are happening quickly. And every time I go to the site, every two to three months, there is a lot that has changed. and it's really, really just awesome to see that. it's been super exciting. I know I know Constellation is like documenting the process too, so that'll be really cool, but it's gonna be really just exciting.

Mark Hinaman (13:12)
Like like

they're seeing notes or they're like, have a videographer on site.

Grace Vanderhei (13:16)
a little bit of all of the above, I would say, at this point. I don't know the full details.

I don't know all of the details, but it's been it's just like such a unique, such a cool project, so yeah.

Mark Hinaman (13:29)
I think like heavy industry sites are some of the coolest

assets that like we can visit as humans. It's like looking at what you know our forefathers built before like generation before us built, it's it's super fun. like touring Fort St. Brain in Colorado, it it's kind of eerie. Like shut down nuclear power plant. They've still got the gigantic monolithic concrete stack and like there's still offices with bunch boxes that are dusty and like

treadmill like an old office, it's really goofy, you know, that's like forty years old and

Grace Vanderhei (14:08)
Yeah.

Mark Hinaman (14:08)
you're like this was this this was people. It's almost like looking at archaeology. and like I can just imagine to go back into the facility like, all right, fix her up and like buy an old house and we're gonna fix her up and put her back in service. So

Grace Vanderhei (14:22)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Mark Hinaman (14:24)
what do you know what kind of learnings do you think I or do are there any learnings that you're aware of that might

past next generation. like soon you learn things from vocal. Anything that you're aware of that crane has done that might

Move move to the next date or from the next plant restart.

Grace Vanderhei (14:47)
Well, I mean I think the interesting I I think those will all come out once it's actually back online, like the formal part of it. But I will say,

From like just my experience with engineering work, never underestimate the power of documentation because like we look

back on so much stuff from when the site was operating back in in 2019 and before. and that's like our basis, because for six years of not having anybody at this site or working this site or this like only decommissioning people were there, we lost a lot of skills. Like, we lost a lot of the knowledge and that tribal knowledge, for lack of better word, that like is specific to that plant. So we rely

upon the documentation to teach us like, hey, what are the weird quirks about this plant? Or hey, what are the things we need to be looking out for and making sure we're mitigating risks and things like that. and it's very difficult when the documentation isn't clear or isn't clearly referenced or things like that. And

I know that that sounds like the bare minimum to do, like to document things and document them well, especially in the nuclear industry where we love our documentation, we love having everything written down, we love having pre-job briefs and all of that stuff, right? just like taking that stuff. I now take all of that, I would say just an even extra step more seriously, because I'm like, I literally want somebody who is new to this entire industry and looking at this document for the first time and has to figure it out completely on their own. I want them to be able to understand.

that because that's exactly what I'm doing right now with some of this crane restart material is all right like I guess I'm looking back at some of these older documents and I'm gonna see what I can figure out and and you know that's one of the best things I think.

Mark Hinaman (16:27)
I don't know.

Brooking mistake here, Grace. You're gonna think I'm a garbage podcast host.

Grace Vanderhei (16:30)
Yeah, no, you're good. You're good. You're fine.

Mark Hinaman (16:39)
do you think the style of documentation will change though? Because we're recording so many meetings now and like AI transcriptions and like my god, the number of like note takers Fathom and Otter and Reed and Granella and all of the note takers. I I wonder like our children are gonna be like

You guys read documents, that that's cute. Like we you know, type in pumps or ask computer a question and then like the AI generated person says things back to us like

Grace Vanderhei (17:10)
I think

Think AI is always gonna be a tool for at least the near-term future in the nuclear industry. I don't think it's going to be a final decision maker in any capacity anytime soon, though. So that's the one thing that, like, okay, if we're reviewing documents and looking at revisions, like using it to help compare and contrast and then verify like differences between revisions or something like that. Like, maybe that's an application. helping find things in documentation. If it's like, hey, where is you?

know the PCI analysis for cycle 21, like maybe it'll be able to help with stuff like that.

but right now I think like in terms of how that documentation can change, I think it will improve because of AI because we'll have better note taking.

It'll be a a lot easier to like we a good example here is one of the reload meetings that only happens at Crane. Like none of our other sites ever did it. Only TMI did it when it was operating. so when it came to like doing this reload meeting again, all I had to work off of was like meeting minutes and one agenda that I found from like 15 years ago. So I was like, that's just to get an idea of like what is normally discussed during this meeting. so now with recording meetings.

and having everything be digital just as much as it is in person, that's gonna allow for hopefully somebody to be able to look back on it in the future and say, this is exactly what was said, or like I can learn from this. Maybe it'll help develop the agenda faster for the next cycle, for the next reload, or whatever it.

be. So I can see like things like that being where it plays a role in documentation improving, but ultimately it's still like such a long ways away in my opinion from being any type of decision maker. At least that's how an engineer should be responsibly using it, especially in the nuclear industry, is it should never be a decision maker right now. I think that might change depending on the company that you work for, depending on who you're with or what it is, but that's just my personal opinion on it.

Mark Hinaman (19:13)
think the I think about how to work probably too much.

Grace Vanderhei (19:17)
Yeah.

Mark Hinaman (19:18)
you know, kind of like a a productivity junkie over here. but it like thinking about what documentation is doing, just capturing ideas and being able to communicate them to other people. We just have so much more information that captured the transcriptions and video recordings and like you get the nuance and I I think it's really cool.

circling

Grace Vanderhei (19:39)
I agree.

Mark Hinaman (19:40)
back to kind of your your technical piece. Like core design, it isn't like you say, well, I can this fancy software and sit in a cube and that's not that cool. Like surely there's some frustration, surely there's like fancy calculations. Talk to about applying your education and kind of seeing that transcend like through your work and then with these tangible products that we mentioned.

just some of the quirks and nuances and like I I think there's it it's it's possible to find beauty in that work. I just I wanna I wanna learn more about it. I think

Grace Vanderhei (20:15)
Yeah.

Mark Hinaman (20:16)
it's fun.

Grace Vanderhei (20:16)
Yeah. So it's i I think it's really interesting just because like a nuclear engineering degree teaches you the concepts and some of the applications in a way, but like I I didn't get taught Casmosimulate in school. I wasn't designing a core. Exactly.

Mark Hinaman (20:30)
Yeah, you forget to all the software that you need in pool library.

Grace Vanderhei (20:33)
Like we had a MATLAB class, but like that was about it. So

Mark Hinaman (20:35)
Yeah. We're like, why am I learning

MATLAB? This is not helpful.

Grace Vanderhei (20:39)
No, it's not it's not.

And I've never I've never used it after I left college. So but I am I will say like I used it a ton in classes and I think what at least one coding class taught me was just some of the foundational skills of coding and just like how to approach a coding problem. MATLAB is a very different language than Casmo Simulate, but it was like the starting point and everybody's gotta start somewhere. So I

I honestly think one of the biggest things from my education was like all of the work experience that I did because I worked in a couple different research labs and I actually I did a co-op with Constellation. So I did have some Casmo Simulator experience before starting full-time work.

And I'm thankful for that stuff because it got me to I'm a hands-on person. I like to see the end result. I like to see like the final impact of what I've done. And that is why I don't work in research. I will say that. Cause I give everybody credit that works in research because I like a 10-year timeline for something to me is like I just that's just not how I function. So so I give credit to folks in that world because I I know it's not made for me and I know it's made for other people.

people who do it excellently and have the tenacity and the courage and the and the the ability to do that. So

Mark Hinaman (21:56)
Yeah,

but quick tannin here, I think this is kinda funny. Chris Wright's the same thing, right? Like he went into industry and he says publicly that like rather than go do diffusion research and and now he's like boss of the research institutes. It's like coming full circle. just yeah. Recognize that I mean yeah, yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (22:09)
Yeah. Yep. And sometimes that's what happens. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. It's crazy.

but yeah, so in that scenario, like for me, I think the concepts and just getting that like initial language familiarization is what helped a ton. because then also like you go and work for some of these utilities or from these power generators, and like they all you have to go through your own quals and your own training and all of that stuff. So you're still in typically for the first year of your like hiring process and like the first year of your work, you're still in training, like you're still learning and you're still understanding. Okay, how do I apply these skills that I learned from reacting.

Theory physics class, and now actually apply it to designing a core. so I think that that's like one of the cool things. I know training is always like typically when people are like, I've got more training to do, you know, it's like a tiresome thing, but typically it's also really cool to get more quals to learn to take on harder tasks to do hard things. I think it's fun, I love it. That's just how I am and how I function as a human.

Mark Hinaman (23:17)
And in a sense of curiosity helps a lot with that. So you should be as a curious person, Graves, which is wonderful.

Grace Vanderhei (23:24)
Yeah, yeah. Good.

Mark Hinaman (23:27)
so there's there's been a lot of enthusiasm for new nuclear in the US right now, like as far as my reactors, advanced reactors, etc. but bigger term capacity absolutely still comes from big plants existing dance like the ones of constellation around. is there enough

knowledge about this. I feel like most of the media coverage and hype is all about the the newcomers. And while you've got the the existing fleet just carrying the look back here.

Grace Vanderhei (23:56)
Yeah, I mean the existing fleet is that it's that's not new for the existing fleet to be operating quietly. Like that's not that's not new. Yeah. Like they've been doing that's

Mark Hinaman (24:01)
Yeah. The offensive line is doing our job, like

Grace Vanderhei (24:07)
been happening for 40 years and it'll happen for 40 more. Like it's fine. and that's just like so putting on my other hat of like not the engineering side of me, but that's also just how the media works and like how that's how news gets reported is it's based on

like isolated incidents or the newness of something. So like isolated incidents, for example, like plane crashes are always like really high impact, but they're always they're so rare. So that's why they always get reported on. and you can almost kind of make the same assumption about like, my God, there was a leak at a nuclear power station. Now we're on global headlines. And it's like, okay, this was just fixed with

something like it's fine, it's something that's manageable, you know, like so it's it's interesting how that stuff works. So when it comes to that, the existing fleet is not like exciting new news. It's not isolated. It's not like anything crazy in that sense. So no that's not in the general we do and and but that like they're like all right

Mark Hinaman (25:03)
We we worked really hard and we did our job well. okay. Like

Grace Vanderhei (25:10)
Yeah, but that's but I mean but that's it. But they're like, We'll keep going, we'll keep bumbling along and we'll keep making power. Like, that's

what it is at the end of the day. I think we're seeing the existing fleet in the news with some of these like

whatever types of deals are going on across the country, like everybody's got going on right now. So that sort of stuff is happening. But again, that's just because like newness of it, right? That's the newness side of it. And that's just like how the how news gets reported and what gets the media's attention to get reported on. so I will say that that's a skill that I would recommend that people use to their advantage of like, okay, if you can identify new and unique, now you can get it out there if you have a message that you want to get out there. but so

It's been exciting. SMRs are like all the rage. Anytime I do events with the publicing, like with the general public, that's usually what's getting asked about. It's also like SMRs are the favorite thing in the politics world. and I'm all for it. Like, I'm excited about it. I think some of these advanced reactor discussions are really, really thrilling. I'm ready to see people take that that leap of getting that next step here in the US for commitments for more than just like our test reactor or something like that, which we're seeing some of them doing. which

Which been awesome.

Mark Hinaman (26:25)
Curious about your opin your opinion, sorry. the opinion, and maybe the industry's opinion of some of your peers or f as you're interacting with folks, about the NRC has changed over time. has evolved kind of where it is now. and I don't wanna say it's opinion opinion, look good to work with, bad work with. I feel like the NRC got a lot of shit thrown at it.

in the past like five, ten years. As long as I've been like interested in nuclear, people like, the NRC, it's terrible. But I feel

Grace Vanderhei (26:53)
Yeah.

Mark Hinaman (26:56)
like my Yeah, curious on your perception of the change over time. And maybe

Grace Vanderhei (27:02)
Yeah.

Mark Hinaman (27:02)
if not our perception then what are you what are you hearing?

Grace Vanderhei (27:06)
Yeah, so I I'll emphasize here first of all, I very rarely interface directly with the

NRC. So like my personal experiences are very limited with it. However, what I do have con when I do have conversations with them on the external side of my job, honestly I I yeah, I agree that s there's probably an industry sentiment that it's like, it's gotta go through the NRC and stuff. But like

Get it and I get the frustration, but I also think the NRC is aware of like inefficiencies and they are actively working to improve that. And to me, that's that's worth recognizing. Like, we can gripe and complain about it, or we can try to solve the problem, right? Like, we can actually help and step forward and provide ideas of how we can make things more efficient. We can do that as an industry. because the NRC is part of our industry in my mind. Like, no, they're not the commercial generators, but they are a regulator, and like I don't want to be enemy.

With our regulator personally, I'd rather be friends and work together with them and collaborate. So that would be like my challenge, I guess, for anybody that's in the nuclear industry that might have that like, not the NRC sentiment. whatever your frustrations are, like see what solutions you can come up with that are like practical hows. You know, if you're frustrated with things taking too long, timing-wise,

Why is it where is it going wrong? Like what's happening? I I just learned about this is a good like example of something that little things can solve some of these really big problems and I don't know if the NRC should do this or not, but

There was something in Virginia. I I'm not gonna like take a guess at the department because I think I know it, but I'm not a hundred percent on it. But there was a a a permitting department in the state of Virginia that was taking too long, and all they did was they made a website to show like the queue status, right? And it was open to the public. and it ended up like improving efficiency by 40%. Because when one person who was working on item number 20 saw that it was taking too long to get to number one, they'd go to item number six's lead and say, like, hey,

Can I help you with something? Like, what are you stuck on? Like, what can we do to get this moving faster? And like having just that openness about, hey, what's holding up the problems here? that that might go a long way. So, like, there are ways to improve it. It's not a lost cause, it's a necessary cause that we've got to make sure that we actually work together on. So that's my like soapbox with the NRC, I guess.

Mark Hinaman (29:37)
Collaborate and be pathetic and like there's there's humans trying to solve these problems. Go work with the humans.

Grace Vanderhei (29:42)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Exactly. Exactly.

Mark Hinaman (29:47)
you tell a lot of audiences about nuclear energy and you know, this the classic pushbacks and tropes. do you find any myths that exist within the industry that you're you're like, man, I we're telling ourselves these stories, but as I've learned more like I I just feel like it's not true. Like somebody they're like self-propagated myths. Are there is there anything that comes to mind about that?

Grace Vanderhei (30:13)
I like

I like this question. This is a really good question. I'm like thinking of stuff internally. I

I w certainly hope that the sentiment of like no news is good news goes away entirely. I yeah, I

Mark Hinaman (30:24)
I have to go away. Like just keep

like, man, hope hope everyone knows we're doing a good job here like you know.

Grace Vanderhei (30:30)
Yep. Yeah.

So I think that that's gone, which is good. like I I think that that's definitely changed a lot, especially in the past five or six years. I think one of the biggest misconceptions though is just like how

And obviously I'm biased about this because like I care a lot about the communication side of stuff. But we get very stuck in our processes that one, I want to make sure that we continue to prioritize efficiency as well as maintaining our high level of integrity with these processes. because just in the same way that you can get frustrated with the NRC, I think the nuclear industry does have some stuff that, like, all right, let's not shoot ourselves in the foot here, right? Like, let's make sure that we are doing this still efficiently while maintaining a high level of

Safety, of integrity, of technical expertise, of all of those things. I think one of my mis one of the things that I would kind of complain and gripe about maybe is like young people entering the workforce. And I think there's a lot of low opinions of young people that are coming in, like about Gen Z and stuff like that. And I I think in some ways it's justified, but I think it like in some ways, because I'll acknowledge, like, listen, yeah, I'm on my phone too much. I own up to that. Alright, I own up to it.

but in a way of like there's always like some people that are like, well, the work ethic of young people nowadays isn't just isn't there. And I'm like, okay, well, maybe let's figure out what needs to change elsewhere to like make it a more exciting workplace, then because heaven forbid I'm not satisfied with just doing something that might be comparable to a clerical job. Like I want stimulating work, I want to take on new things. and I think it's interesting to get away from the workplace culture of all right, here's

Your career ladder, follow it, figure it out, like step one, and you kind of feel like a number in the system.

versus figuring out okay, what is each person actually truly interested in and going from there? So I think that's maybe one thing, and I feel like that's like a hot take, maybe. I don't know. there isn't like a super big misconception, I would say. I wouldn't say that that's how all people think, but that is one thing that I definitely like hear every once in a while. So yeah.

Mark Hinaman (32:40)
I think there, yeah, there's either in there's an underappreciation or a prejudice against young people that sometimes is founded and sometimes unfounded. My personal experience, like some of the young engineers we've hired are some of the best that I've seen and worked with. Like this bright, brilliant, motivated, fantastic people.

And I I don't know. I I think if like you're not finding that level of talent, then like you're not doing stuff correctly and you're you need better calls, right? So need press. the tracker right right tends to be

Grace Vanderhei (33:20)
I mean yeah, but that's valid. Yeah, yeah. And I think

like the recruiting process for stuff has changed so much. I like I I don't think I can speak too much to it 'cause it's been two and a half ish years and like I had a strange recruiting process 'cause it was like during my Euros Miss America when I was looking for a job. So like one, I have to say that was fantastic timing, but like

Mark Hinaman (33:40)
Yeah. Yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (33:43)
Yeah, I was like that so I I just

feel like I can't like be the person to comment on that a ton, but yeah.

Mark Hinaman (33:50)
Just

go do that when you graduate college. Well, yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (33:53)
It's fine, it's fine. You I

well I I had to finish up school first, so I did that during the year and then then I took I took a month on to Africa and then came back and worked. So

Mark Hinaman (33:59)
I mean that water was yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (34:04)
but no, I think the recruiting process is probably gonna start like changing in terms of how it's done. 'Cause like also like I can't imagine interviewing with an AI interviewer now.

Like that's what so many people have to deal with. And I'm just like, why already having to do the like record to camera type of interviews where like they just give you a question and you record your answer and like you get one shot and that's it. I'm like, all right, that was already like so inhumane. Now if we're like doing interviews where I'm just gonna be talking to an AI screen, like I'm like, that's terrifying. Like

Mark Hinaman (34:37)
I I didn't know that was happening. That's I'm not surprised whatsoever. That's yeah, baffling.

Grace Vanderhei (34:43)
Yeah, it's gonna be interesting. It's gonna be interesting. But the world is changing and we gotta figure out how to how to adapt and grow with it. That's ultimately where it is. So

Mark Hinaman (34:52)
Yeah.

I'm a proponent of nuclear and STEM and I'd be miss if we if we didn't talk about it. I mean you're a great example. My my niece was just in here listening in to us record this podcast and I'm always pushing my nieces to like, you buy mouth kits and push towards STEM activities. but talking about women instead and I mean like

Patrice Karen's great example, right? She's the president of Hukari Ascendant and runs her own nuclear engineering firm. excellent example of w very brilliant woman in industry that like has self made and has got and done great things. is is it changing? If so, how how is it changing? just just speak your mind.

Grace Vanderhei (35:40)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's absolutely changing. looking at just percentages in graduating classes across the country, all the way to like the workplace I'm in right now, I will say, like, if I had to take a guess, I think that change is happening faster at the corporate level than it is at a site level. So, like for example, all of our nuclear fuels interns this year, with Constellation, they're I think that I think I don't have like the exact quotes, but based on the ones I've met so far, I've only met one male intern.

The rest have been all female. So I'm like, okay, things are changing. Like this is a very different world. versus like when I remember when I was an intern, like I was or I was a co op. I was the only female co-op. So I'm like, this is this is different. and that change happened really quickly too, I'll emphasize. But that also comes from like an increase in interest in the workforce overall, like of people wanting to go into nuclear and people wanting to be in a part of it, which is awesome. So I I personally

think like this might be a also hot take. Apparently this is just like I'm just saying all of my hot takes today. It's fine.

Mark Hinaman (36:43)
Yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (36:46)
I it's fine. It's fine. Yeah.

Mark Hinaman (36:47)
Yes, people. Yeah, you're good first.

Grace Vanderhei (36:50)
but I think like when it comes to getting young girls and young women interested in nuclear, interested in STEM even or interested honestly in whatever you're trying to like get them to be interested in. Because you're coming in with a mission, right? I

personally growing up like got really sick of some of it being pushed on you so much. and the strategy and approach that I usually try to take is like, okay, what is what is this person's what is this kid's mission, right? Because I think the mission and what they end up and and their passion are two different things. their mission, maybe they care a lot about clean energy. Maybe they care about climate change. Maybe they care about sharing stories. Maybe they care about, you know

Designing good cores. I don't know. Like whatever it might be. I don't think that would be the thing a fourth grader would ever say, but

Finding that mission and then helping them discover the passion that supports that mission is what I kind of try to take the approach of because like I've met so many so many young people that are like, Yeah, I really, you know, I I wanna do something for climate change, like I wanna help support this, I wanna help make reliable energy or whatever it is. but you know, I just don't think engineering is really for me. I've never, you know, really liked math. And one I'll always kinda talk about I'm like, Well, you don't have to be amazing at math to be a good engineer. Like there's a lot of examples of people that

got C's and they're doing amazingly right now, right? So like don't stress. Yeah, I

Mark Hinaman (38:18)
Frankly, I think this can be some of the best engineers. But

Grace Vanderhei (38:21)
I okay that side side hot take.

I think if you have a 4.0, I'm I'm super kind of like against 4.0s. I think if you have a 4.0 in school, you're either not in hard enough classes or you're not doing enough outside of school. I personally like that's where I stand on it. So I I never had the last time I had a 4.0 was my freshman year of high school. my master's degree right now.

Been above a 3-5. I've been getting a couple A minus, but that's like very different from engineering, but it's fine. But like in that scenario, I think it's fine to not have a 4-0. Like, don't stress because you don't need a 4-0 to be successful and to do all these awesome things. So, anyways, back to the original hot take. So, we they we find their mission, and then finding that passion that best supports them of what they could do for the next 40 years of their life is so so important. Whether it's like, okay, you know, I do want to work.

In comms and advocacy work, well, great. Good thing about nuclear is there's literally a job for everyone. If you want to work in nursing and psychology, great, come work in the fitness for duty section of nuclear. Like, there are so many different options, at least in the nuclear industry, and obviously that's the the passion I'm trying to push at the end of the day, but help people find their mission and then find the passion that supports that mission is like

That's the approach that I take. and I feel like it's worked pretty well in some cases. Some cases it doesn't. Every person is gonna be different and all you can do is try.

Mark Hinaman (39:53)
That's that's fantastic. Start with wall. It's a it's a model. So is that common objection

Grace Vanderhei (39:55)
Yeah. So

Mark Hinaman (40:00)
that you can or hesitation

that people can't see themselves in or they don't know why they would do a career in the space?

Grace Vanderhei (40:07)
feel like that doesn't happen as much anymore, personally. I I

Mark Hinaman (40:13)
You do a great job. Yeah, no, yeah, I'm kidding. That's yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (40:14)
Yeah, like I

mean, I feel like that, like, not just it's not that people don't see themselves. I think it's less they don't see themselves and they are afraid of hearing the word no. because like the amount of times I've heard no, I have had professors, I've had people say like you shouldn't be an engineering. I've had that explicitly said to me word for word, and I've had somebody say it like you shouldn't be an engineering because you're a woman. And I'm like, dude, this is it's like 2023. Like what?

Like so you're gonna be told no. And what you have to have is the resilience and the willingness to find a different pathway. I don't think anything is stopping anybody from getting to where they want to be or getting to where they want to go. I think it comes down to do you have the tenacity and the resilience to get there? Because there's gonna be challenges in anything you do. I don't care if it's nuclear engineering or becoming a doctor or whatever it might be. Like, it's gonna be hard, and there's gonna be people that.

tell you no there's going be opportunities that tell you no and you may or may not know why but what you can do is look at what you have what resources you have available to you and find that different pathway around whatever barrier that might be that's also a I'll get off that soapbox now god I'm like so much

Mark Hinaman (41:33)
It's good. That's great. Yeah.

all right, let's let's look forward a little bit. I would we've talked about the near future. I mean super exciting stuff that's happening with the the crane restart. I remember like seeing that announcement at hundred.

Yeah. And that's one of the three three mile island restart and just super exciting stuff. what does the future look like? The next thirty years from now, the nuclear build out, it goes the way we we think it should. What does the American grid look like? And what role do you think engineers will play in getting

Grace Vanderhei (42:10)
Yeah, I certainly hope that by the end of my career we've doubled nuclear energy generation in the US. in addition to keeping our existing fleet going. I think that's one thing that like our existing fleet will eventually have an end of life with all of these traditional reactors that are there. So, like we gotta we gotta we gotta do something

Mark Hinaman (42:28)
Okay.

Grace Vanderhei (42:31)
about that, all right. We got some time, all right, but we wanna make sure that we have the replacements necessary to come back online when those eventually do reach the end of their life.

Life. I don't think that that's gonna be anytime soon. I mean, I think at the end of the day, everything in a nuclear power plant can be replaced it pretty much except for the reactor vessel. Like at that point you might as well be like, all right, well, you know. So like in that scenario, you've got you've got quite a long lifespan for these plants, I'm guessing.

When you have a healthy nuclear power plant. And so what I would say keeping that existing fleet going, going through power up rates, modernizing nuclear fuel technology. So we're seeing things like LEU plus coming into play. I think that's gonna end up making these reactors that were built in the seventies and eighties even better. You know, like it's crazy, it's cool. but

advanced reactors are really gonna be responsible for that doubling of that power ultimately at the end of the day. I think that that's gonna be what we're gonna see coming across the country and honestly across the world, which I am thrilled about. I really hope that we have I would love more job opportunities out in the mountains, people, okay? I know.

Mark Hinaman (43:45)
Colorado nuclear lines, we're trying to trying to change politics here in Colorado and get get

the get the sentiment changed, get the build build some nuclear power out here. So yeah. I'm I'm helping. Yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (43:54)
Yeah, yeah. It is happening. It is happening slowly. And

I think that that stuff is changing for sure. with like states across the country lifting moratoriums, starting nuclear caucuses. I was just in my home state of Wisconsin where I grew up. I live in Delaware now, but I grew up in Wisconsin, so I still have a lot of ties there and everything. And

Like Wisconsin in just the past two or three years has gone through a ton to like they've developed sighting initiatives, they've developed a nuclear caucus, like they are trying the best to get their green light going for their state. Because like building new nuclear isn't just a hey, we're gonna build it wherever. Like it needs to have you know, not just national support, but it's gotta have the state support and the local community buy-in as well for it. So

That's gonna be something that I think is gonna be really just like good to keep an eye out for. And if you're somebody who's trying to like predict where plants are gonna go up, that's a good thing to keep in mind, right? so in that scenario, I think doubling nuclear power is like what I would love to see by the end of my career, next 30 years. And short term, it's gonna be restarts and power upgrades, right? If we're looking in the next three to five years.

Then after that, we're looking at advanced reactors coming online in that five to ten year range. I'm hoping from today. we're looking at some like new new reactors coming online. It doesn't even have to be advanced. and I will jump in and say, like, I think that what I hope that the nuclear industry does in these next 10 years and with these next new builds is I want the priority to be on time and on budget. Like there from from the general public interaction, because the general

The general public does have the power of social licensing to just shut plants down if they don't want one in their community, right? they have that power. there's a lot of a lack of trust in our construction process in the nuclear industry. So like

I really just hope 10 years out we're building on time, on budget. I honestly do not care what is getting built, but I want multiple successful projects. I want a pattern of success to continue to rebuild that trust because nuclear can do it. Like I know that this industry can do it. We've done it before, we did it in the 70s and 80s, and yes, a lot of things have changed since then.

But we can do it today. Like, come on. It can't be that bad. and I all I actually kind of think like one of the things that really should be done is like almost outsourcing the project management of construction as well, of like figuring out, okay, there are other people. We're good at operating plants, we're good at whatever it might be, but maybe we do get better construction knowledge specific people on project management and everything. Yeah.

Mark Hinaman (46:37)
I'm

heavily biased, but I think shell companies should step in and go do the project management, but that's

Grace Vanderhei (46:42)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Hinaman (46:43)
just me.

Grace Vanderhei (46:44)
No, and that's where I don't know. I don't know. And this is all like

my personal opinion, by the way. Like I genuinely I work on reloads. Okay, guys. So don't like take anything that I have I don't actually know things. but so in that scenario though, I I hope that that's what we see in the like within that 10 year mark. And then that 10 to 30 year mark, great. Let's like start getting in a good diversity of reactor types. Maybe we're looking at like micro reactors at that point. I don't know, like all sorts of different things.

That I think would be super awesome. That ultimately, end goal by the end of that 30 years is I'd love to see nuclear energy doubled.

Mark Hinaman (47:22)
Yeah, that's awesome. I for your awareness and like the world's awareness, like people want nuclear built everywhere. I I was on the phone literally yesterday with the project developer as an asset in Colorado. I can't disclose many d many details, but like this guy was sitting on the rooftop of a Vombi on Pearl Street in Boulder, Colorado, which is like the mega like political anti-nuclear capital world.

And he said to me, like, we want to go build natural gas as soon as as soon as possible and then bring in an advanced reactor to our site and have test them and demonstrate an ecosystem that works and like build a nuclear reactor in Colorado. I'm like cool, let's make it happen. So

Grace Vanderhei (48:14)
Yeah.

Mark Hinaman (48:14)
there's examples like that that are happening, I think, all over the country. And it's it's super, super exciting.

I what what about for you personally, Grace? I mean if professional sense personal sense, I don't know. what do you have a wish list of like, man, I wanna do these things in my career? Has has anyone ever asked me that? Like,

Grace Vanderhei (48:34)
Yeah.

Mark Hinaman (48:38)
i it is kind of like career strategy looking forward. Well, at some point I want to be VP of this project or like this project management or I I don't know, have you thought about a bucket list of

Rear goals for Grace Van Der Eye?

Grace Vanderhei (48:54)
gosh. Well I I do a lot of thinking about this and I can tell you right now there is not a list. It does not exist.

because like at the end of the day, you know, I I think it's good to make those lists and I think it's good to have a direction, but also keep the doors open for changing things that like you wouldn't expect to be doing. I do know that like the next step, my next goal in the short term here is I do want to start moving into like the fuel supply world. So moving away from core design and reload work into sourcing uranium and that

Early first part of the fuel cycle process. I I love engineering work, but it's also like really cool to have the engineering skills and apply them to the business mindset, and that's sort of like a good like transition, I think, for me. But after that, I genuinely have no idea. We'll see what happens. Like I I right now I take it day by day and I learn everything I can in the roles I'm in because I know that we need people that stay in these roles and become like truly experts.

In them and spend significant amounts of time in them. I don't know if I'll ever be that person. So I try and get as much as I can while I'm

in these roles to be able to apply it to other parts of the company too because like even just the role I'm in right now with these these two totally opposing forces at the end of the day because like it's engineering and comms work like it is very opposite in a lot of ways. I found so many bridges that have been really valuable between the two. Whether it's like hey you know we engineering we've got this really cool thing that I think would make a great tool on the commside it's like okay yeah we can

use that. Like stuff like that, I think, is underestimated as finding the bridge between two totally contrasting areas. So I like to do that. What happens after fuel supply? I don't know. We'll see. it's also gonna be like at that point in my life, you know, I I know I want to have kids at some point. So like that's gonna start playing a role and having a family and everything. That still is a long ways away so do not like make assumptions. But like

That is a part of the discussion too. It's like figuring out what I what life looks like as well. And eventually I wanna have a boat. That's the the short term goal for water skiing.

Mark Hinaman (51:10)
nice.

Grace Vanderhei (51:10)
So So yeah, we'll see.

Mark Hinaman (51:17)
This has been super fun. I guess all we're gonna have you back on this sooner later. So boat. I love it. Yeah. yeah, has Grace

Grace Vanderhei (51:25)
Yeah. It's fine. Little things. You gotta start with little things.

Mark Hinaman (51:28)
Bander hi. Has has smart brain, will work, will execute well on projects.

Grace Vanderhei (51:34)
We'll do it for both. That's it.

Mark Hinaman (51:37)
Will we will work for both.

Grace Vanderhei (51:40)
If you can get me a Mastercraft Pro star, I'm I'm it. No.

Mark Hinaman (51:44)
Yeah.

Grace Vanderhei (51:46)
man, it's entertaining. Not actually, but in that scenario.

Mark Hinaman (51:52)
Awesome. Great. Thanks so much for your time. It's great to great to get up and learn learn about you and appreciate all your insights and hot take. This was fun.

Grace Vanderhei (51:59)
All the hot takes. It's fine. Thanks so much, Mark. I appreciate it. Appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today too.

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